Comment moderation is on until this passes.
None of them are readers of this blog. If they were they might know of my relationships with dumped dogs, loose cows, sweet kitties and every varmint these mountains have to offer. Regular readers may know I have a license to kill bugs that I have never used. They may remember when I almost stepped on my first copperhead. I didn't kill it. I flung it into the forest with a soft rake.
These gravely concerned people must have glue traps stuck to the sides of their heads and can't even bother to click on the many other posts from just this week on my dealings with a host of vermin. Glue traps bad. He is an evil monster.
Here's a little sample of their persausive arguments to make me change my evil ways.
From Cid: Wow, throwing live mice into the trash while they're stuck to glue. I may hate mice, but at least I'd have the balls to end its life if its trapped and going to painfully die. Fucking Sociopath.
From James Kinley: You shouldn't be allowed near live animals. I shudder to think how you'd be as a parent with that kind of attitude.
From rikia1433: Fucking dirtbag. /b/ is going to have a field day with you. BTW, "Freedom To Speak" - hahaha. What have you got to hide by moderating comments?
I used to watch you, because I am a gardener too. But after discovering you're a fucking prick of a person who tortures small animals, I won't any more. Also, you can't kill mice "as you see fit", I'm sure you're breaking a couple of animal cruelty laws by torturing them. Fucking animal abusing dickhead.
I think this /b/ is a 4Chan forum where they may be coming from, but I'm not up on that. If rikia1433 has ever read this blog they have never left a comment until now. They certainly had nothing to say about all the dogs I gather up around here.
Well let me tell the anti-glue trap brigade a little something. It is true. I have no empathy what so ever for the suffering of mice. They are vermin to me. When the cats catch them and play with them until they stop moving I do not intervene. When they chew holes in my house to get inside and take up residence in my truck they are going to die. I do not care how or how long it takes.
In their overwrought hysteria that makes me a baby psycho ready to turn serial killer at any moment. It would be better they think to quickly kill any still live mice stuck to the traps. I could crush them with a rock or maybe decapitate them with my hedge clippers or pruners. Maybe I could stab them with a dull rusty knife or drown them in a bucket of water. Wouldn't that be fun.
No, after five years of the continual and never ending battle to keep the vermin outside where they belong and where they can live a happy life undisturbed by me, I am completely indifferent to the suffering of mice stuck to a glue trap. I have no qualms or remorse about throwing them in the trash. That's just how it is. Humans are complicated that way.
If these anti-glue trap activists think that makes me evil, the local culture in these mountains would completely freak them out.
So Jordon you started this. Your vulgar efforts and grave concerns will be rewarded. I can get you a glue trap with a live mouse attached that you and your posse can stick where the sun don't shine.
And because I really am a nice guy, I'll even let you make one comment each. There are two rules though. No name calling and no profanity. That will take some thought and effort. If any of you can accomplish that your comment will be published.
Good Luck.
Posts
53 comments:
Sorry to hear you have been receiving offensive e-mails. It seems that some people think that freedom of speech means that they can be just as rude as possible, under the cloak of anonymity of course. Too easy to curse and rant when no-one knows who you are. Hope the ugliness is buried by the lush.
So not only are you saying that you have no empathy for suffering, but are actually causing it? And posting pictures of it?
I am disappointed. I thought I had opened up good dialogue with you on the issue, a civil discussion on ethics. And now this? Torturing an animal to make a point that you show no remorse? What is the matter with you?
I find this a little disturbing.
Making something else suffer is not a *good* thing. And yes, it is generally better to kill an animal quick than starve it to death. You're not going to win much praise with this post, it's pretty cold and heartless. What kind of reply are you expecting from people when you admit to torturing an animal like this?
As far as being evil goes, well, you're not doing a good job trying to convince people that you aren't. Being indifferent to a random animal in pain is one thing, but inflicting it and then showing no remorse to what you've done? I don't think there's anything you can say that can justify that.
Personally, I think this is appalling behaviour.
This is all kinds of sick. And I don't mean the "awesome" kind either.
You might not care how you kill them, but your state's laws might. I'm going to contact the ASPCA and enquire about laws dealing with the removal of pest animals. I am going to recommend that they investigate this blog. I believe that leaving an animal to die slowly on a trap without humanely euthanising it is against the law, however I am not 100% sure which is why I'm asking an animal welfare organisation.
If I was you I'd delete this blog and pretend it didn't happen. You're not doing yourself any favors basically admitting the torture of another animal.
Umm yeah... subjecting something to a slow and painful death and not feeling anything for it is the definition of an evil act. It's not like you can claim it's good or anything, because it isn't.
Dennis, Craig, I think it is safe to say that the constant repeated exposure has desensitized me. In psychology, desensitization (also called inurement) is defined as the diminished emotional responsiveness to a negative or aversive stimulus after repeated exposure to it.
Timo if it helps your efforts I live in Haywood County, NC. We do have an animal control department. Be prepared to be laughed at.
David Spriggs I never said it was a good thing. I said that's just how it is.
rainymountain this too shall pass.
Whatever works Christopher. We get them in the house...not sure how they are getting in, but they are leaving any way possible.
Janet I crawl around and under the houses on a regular basis sealing the tiniest of holes I can find.
Remember now, only one comment per customer and no name calling. Cale Breeze you can try again.
What I am saying, is that your "method" is sadistic and ultimately counter-productive.
Your anti glue trap activist spiel is not relevant to me, because I use them myself. They are a very important part of the pest control arsenal, because they are useful in monitoring vermin activity. Some animals are trap shy, and glue traps might be the only thing that works. However, your use of these traps is irresponsible - you are supposed to kill the animal on it, to minimise its pain and to make sure it doesn't get away. Otherwise it's just inhumane. Since a glue trap keeps the animal alive indefinitely, there is most certainly the chance it can get away. Animal rights activists are having their way with these traps because of the way some people use them, and such concerns are being taken seriously because the process of restriction is already starting to happen.
Most people here are making a moral argument, and I don't disagree with them. You don't gain anything torturing an animal to death, and doing it with these traps make them look worse than they are. Why would you want to, anyway? You can use the "it's just the way it is" line all you want, but it doesn't have to be that way. You can be a kinder, better person showing an act of mercy rather than being callous and mean. You do not have to be cruel about things.
And as people have said, it's not a good thing to make something suffer. That's why it's better just to quickly kill the animal. Think about how painful it must be for it, and imagine yourself in its position. It's not a good way to die, it doesn't deserve it, and you have the power to end its misery.
If you wouldn't torture an annoying stray dog to death, you shouldn't torture an annoying mouse to death.
Are there times when the killing of these pests is acceptable or necessary? Sure. Are there times when torturing it slowly and not caring is acceptable or necessary? Absolutely not.
I can't believe all this. Apparently some people like to have their hard work destroyed.
Lola I don't think these people realize how many mice I have. There are enough to support a healthy predator population of hawks, owls, snakes, weasels, raccoons, foxes, coyotes and sweet kitties with plenty left over to gnaw on everything they can get into.
What makes you say that, Lola? When I have mice screwing around with my stuff, I kill them. It's the "chucking into bin to die slowly and painfully without killing it first" is what is disagreeable with us.
Chris, We who understand, do support your stance because we correctly understand the context. No, you don't need to euthanize (or euthanise[sic])the unfortunately necessary glue-trapped comments, either. I suspect they will peter out as they find themselves being ignored. What you are seeing now is the typical increase in such behavior before the eventual extinction of the unwanted attention as it fails to have any effect.
"non carborundum illigitimi"
[don't let the bas***rds grind you down].
I have a mini-guillotine I can send you.
Sis 2
This all sounds like a bunch of teenagers arguing on Facebook. I think you can kill off your mouse problem however you want to. Obviously posting about HOW you do it is going to draw attention. Otherwise kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!
-Niece 1
(Redneck mullet eater!)
P.S. Have these people ever seen a roach die slowly when you spray it?
-Sis 2
Go, Christopher! The science does not support these people's attitudes, to say nothing of the rudeness.
Go actually study how nature works, guys. Because they're so crazy I am going to truly be 'anonymous' this time, but you know who I am.
Are these people who are upset petitioning the people who make these traps to take them off the market?
Thank you for the supportive comments y'all.
Pomaika'i if you are going to get a house in the woods in Oregon my best advice is super seal every tiny little gap in the house you can find. Caulk and then more caulk. They really don't like to chew silicone caulk.
I put out some glue traps because I didn't want the mice to suffer with poison... ugh, the traps weren't any better and I felt bad about throwing them in the trash so all I could think to do was drown them. That was really awful, what are you supposed to do if you're not set up with morphine and little syringes? I put ant poison around the house because it's a drag to come home and find the counter covered with ants..... and I like ants but not in the kitchen, they probably died a slow death too. People that don't read this blog regularly should go back and read a few months worth before thinking they're talking to Hannibal Lecter. Surely there are people elsewhere really deserving of your attention.
Wondering Woman the poison is no good because another of a host of animals including my cats could eat them or they die is some place you can't get to and stink to high heavens. I did the drowning thing once and it was more than I could take. Live traps are a pain as well as the fact that I don't want any more mouse parts in my truck or bathroom closet than are already there. Inurement as a strategy works fine for me.
Hey Redneck mullet eater! This is what you'll grow up to be one day very, very soon, an adult. Ha.
Has anyone seen a person that has died as a result of powder formed from deer mice urine? Be careful.
No poisons, please.
"Chris, We who understand, do support your stance because we correctly understand the context."
What context? It's a live animal trapped on a glue sheet. Kill it with a rock to the head, don't just leave it to suffer. That's the issue people are bringing up here, and it's amazing how some people don't get the point.
There's no need to torture the little buggers. The method you're using is absolutely horrid, though. I can understand the reason to kill mice, but that's a little too much.
As for the person who said you don't need to euthanise them, you bloody well should. Leaving them on these things is extremely cruel, I do not understand why you would let an animal suffer like that when you can finish it off. Starving a mouse on sticky trap in your garbage bin is immoral. I can't believe people are trying to argue FOR this!
"The science does not support these people's attitudes, to say nothing of the rudeness.
Go actually study how nature works, guys"
- Science tells me that mice can feel pain.
- Science tells me that breaking one's limbs and ripping your face off is extremely painful.
- Science tells me that mice aren't inanimate like a rock.
- Science tells me that starvation is a slow and painful way to die.
- Science tells me there are more painless ways to kill a mouse than force it to mutilate itself on a sheet of glue.
Studying how nature works has absolutely nothing to do with how human beings should behave. A lion chasing down a zebra and eating it, even while it is alive, is a process done for survival. The lion probably isn't aware of any suffering. Torturing a mouse to death isn't done for survival, it is needless. A human being that kills an animal knows better than a lion though, they're fully aware that the animal can suffer. This is why most hunters will aim to kill their quarry with one shot. This is why vets euthanise animals with an injection. This is why people kill stuck mice on glue traps before throwing them out.
Pomaika`i, it's quite obvious most people do NOT support his stance. Personally, I find it abhorrent he kills mice in this manner. It's needless cruelty to an animal, he could have just easily humanely killed the animal and there'd be no issue at all. The issue people are opposing is the method and the attitude. I would say that it really is in more detail, but I won't because this post will be censored.
Why are you supporting something that is inhumane and downright barbaric? And I'm not talking about the killing either, I'm talking about the act of keeping a mouse alive on a glue trap and letting it die agonisingly.
Wondering woman, put the trap with animal in a plastic bag, get something heavy like a rock, and deliver a blow to the head. The animal will be dead instantly.
"I did the drowning thing once and it was more than I could take."
So you DO have empathy for a suffering mouse............ when faced with the suffering directly, that is.
Well imagine a worse death stuck in a garbage bin, unable to eat, continually contorting yourself to the point of broken bones, etc. You know this yet how can you even do something that horrid???
I guess it's because that you don't see it suffer directly, it's "not happening", right?
Don't feel bad Wondering Woman, drowning is a considerably better death than throwing it into the garbage. Typically they'll struggle so hard they'll start pulling bits of themselves off, not to mention dehydration/starvation. Drowning is quicker and less painful.
You did the right thing in those circumstances. Unfortunately I can't say the same for Christopher.
Interesting post. I don't agree with it, though. Cruelty to animals isn't nice at all. Your attitude isn't nice. Putting a live mouse in your bin with its body attached onto a glue board, for it to slowly die? How's that acceptable? Here's an interesting link for you:
http://www.wildcarebayarea.org/site/PageServer?pagename=TakeAction_GlueTraps
Glue traps are bad things. They're very unsanitary too. Why not use a quick-killing trap instead?
I doubt many of you have caught as many mice as I do and watched what happens on a glue trap.
When I need to put out traps I check them every morning. 50% of the mice die in the night before I get to them. I make sure the rest are good and stuck. They can't struggle and they sure as hell are not going to get away much less tear themselves to pieces. They are dead by afternoon. I know that because they come in waves and I add traps to the 'bin' daily - this outrage really has a European origin.
Unless a mouse can starve in 24 hours that argument is horse hockey.
It's all over for the mouse in less than 24 hours. It is not some long drawn out process your fevered imaginations want to make it out to be.
"I guess it's because that you don't see it suffer directly, it's "not happening", right?"
That is exactly right. Out of sight out of mind.
It is nice that so many folks have such empathy for vermin. One could hope that type of kindness would extend out to all your affairs. But only when forced do you seem capable of conversational good manners and it is an obvious struggle for many of you.
A mouse being slowly tortured to death vs a person getting upset because people are calling out their cruelty and inhumanity. Gee, and you wonder why people are struggling to be good mannered to you!
Hang on a moment, you have misgivings about drowning the animal (and look a little sympathetic there), but you have no problem letting the animal die painfully still attached to the device for several hours (maybe more)?
That doesn't make any sense at all, especially after I read the original post. You're either lying about saying you feel nothing (perhaps to look edgy or tough), or when it comes down to it, you're too squeamish to kill an animal yourself because it's more personal.
You, know, this is when I realize some organizations are out of control. Some of them need to come live in the mountains and get a dose of reality. We have an unlimited supply of mice/rats. They have caused damage in our house(relatively new) cars, equipment and my eggs. I feed them regularly, poison, that is.
Yes, I have shot them, and Chris, I am not as nice as you, I kill every rattlesnake and copperhead I see. I am not going to have my grandchildren bitten if I can help it. You know that I give much for the care of unwanted horses, dogs and cats. I have no empathy for mice, rats or snakes. If that makes me awful in the eyes of PETA, so be it. There are some other intolerant groups that don't like me very much either.
D across the mountain.
I’m sure just as many of you get tired of reading a different iteration of the same thought over and over and skip reading a lot of these comments.
I get it. You think it is cruel and inhumane, rising to the level of torture for me to toss a live mouse stuck on a glue trap into the rubbish bin. - I kind of like that word bin. – I should kill them quick before I toss them in the trash. Got it.
I have been to your little Star Destroyer forum and read the comments there. Broomstick’s notion and anyone else’s that “Mr. Asshole, however, enjoys the suffering” is a product of their own fevered imagination. It is particularly rich coming from someone who feeds mice poison. Sure they are fine one second and drop dead the next Broomstick.
Where I live mice are like so much plankton in the oceans. Keeping them out of two houses and cars requires constant vigilance. It becomes a regular and routine household chore just like taking out the trash. The whole process remains disgusting however. I do not derive any pleasure from this. I have no desire to add killing mice to an already disgusting chore.
What y’all don’t want to accept is the fact that I just don’t care about their suffering. They are vermin, the bottom of the food chain, garbage that needs to be gotten rid of.
That doesn’t make me evil, unfeeling, an animal abuser or a psycho. It makes me fed up with mice, period.
victor84 said...
A mouse being slowly tortured to death vs a person getting upset because people are calling out their cruelty and inhumanity. Gee, and you wonder why people are struggling to be good mannered to you!
There is ample proof in the post where this started that if I had not taken control of the situation most of you would have been more than willing to hurl multiple profanities and vulgar epitaphs upon me. Actually, once I said that was not allowed you have been quite good. Even your forum only had minor name calling. My comments in that regard where more an observation than me being upset. But not all comments I received were posted.
Here we have numerous people who feel completely free to express their rage and hatred about something they disapprove of to a complete stranger they know nothing about and have no idea what kind of environmental conditions he lives with. But that’s not the same as torturing mice you will rationalize to yourself. It is justifiable. Yea, tell a battered woman that verbal abuse is not abuse.
Humans are complicated like that. They can compartmentalize things.
I have no empathy for vermin. Many of you seem to lack any empathy for a complete stranger on the internet and fellow human being you know nothing about. You feel it is totally appropriate to express your contempt and hatred for this stranger.
Does this make you people pricks, sociopaths? No it just means you are subject to the same foibles as me. Something disgusts you and you lash out. You rationalize and make it acceptable.
This is getting tiresome though. We are at an impasse of disagreement. I will continue to reject comments for name calling and profanities. The gratuitous gore will also be rejected. - I wonder how much pleasure he got in writing that gross comment? - Still only one comment per customer and completely anonymous comments will be deleted.
From now on I will also be curating new comments. I want new ideas not the same rehash; cruel, inhumane, torture, blah, blah, blah. Enough of that. We need fresh material. Give me some great writing, a piece of theater. Some one needs to explain why I should accord filthy vermin any respect for their feelings from a philosophical, theological or ethical perspective. Why can’t they just be considered trash for the bin? Be creative. Be convincing. Make your case beyond your rage and disgust for my complete lack of empathy for vermin.
Yes, now I am being a prick.
No Praying Mantis/Goreboy/Dennis. I am aware by allowing anonymous commentors you can just change your name and pretend to be someone else. That was just the novel length version of the same old, same old. It's cruel. It's torture. It's a living mammal/mouse blah, blah, blah. You deserve to be castigated for your horrible deeds. It's justified.
I will give you style points for choosing Praying Mantis as a name, an animal that eats its prey alive limb by limb.
InnerBrat has asked the right question.
Once someone decides that a mouse is a thing that can be treated as a thing and not a being, where do you find the common ground, without it becoming a shouting match of "THEY ARE THINGS!" "NO, THEY'RE NOT!"
Genuine question. IS there a way of convincing someone who thinks this way?
Wow Christopher, you certainly stepped in a pile of something warm and stinky. Major points to you for actually addressing it.
A Mini Mouse Auschwitz. just for my friend in Australia.
I've been a taxidermist for years and I can say, in any job where animals(deceased or soon to be) are involved, you tend to get spiteful comments from the holier than thou masses, it doesn't make you a bad person to maintain your house, if that means trapping then so be it. What amazes me is the fact that P.E.T.A. and A.L.F have sent countless death threats to me and my family, without even a clear thought of "this is a living being, we shouldn't threaten him just as we shouldn't an animal". I once stuffed a mid 90 year old widows pet dog, I don't enjoy household animal projects, but seeing the happiness on her face after getting back her only glimmer of light she had since her belated husband passed made it worth it(in my opinion), not even a week later my parents received a f**king pipe bomb in their mail, the main bullet point I'm trying to get across is that most of the people nay saying this have no idea of your intent(to me sounds like you are trying to maintain a house, kudos) and believe you are just maliciously torturing mice, don't ever feel bad about doing what you have to do to preserve your way of life, pe your domicile
He's throwing live mice still attached into the rubbish bin. That's going nothing to do with maintaining anything, because he could do the same job by just tapping them on the head *before* throwing them out. That's the issue. It's leaving something in the bin to suffer, if he'd have put them out of their misery then no one would be complaining.
Someone who does that, then says they "don't care" the animal is suffering, is being malicious. No question. Nothing I've read from these comments are PETA-like or extremist, it's just common sense and having a heart.
I have no desire to add killing mice to an already disgusting chore.
You're killing them anyway, so why not do it quickly and painlessly as possible? Does the act of killing itself make you uneasy? Squeamish? I can't find a good reason to simply just throw 'em into the bin like that, still alive. That's not OK.
Perhaps you'll change your mind if you actually see one suffering in front of your eyes? I'm not judging you or anything, just curious.
Jasmine darling I catch dozens of mice on glue traps every year. I have watched the still living ones more times than you can imagine. I know exactly what is going on.
What you and Mr. Anonymous above simply won't accept is that I have been desensitized. I simply do not care about their struggles. They must be removed from where they are not wanted. That is my prime objective.
You go spend $450 to repair a chewed vacuum hose on your car and then get back to me.
That you lost money in this is unfortunate, but come on. The animal doesn't really know any better, does it deserve to suffer because of that?
Make it quick - euthanise the animal. Is that too much to ask? This is the crux of the issue. I get your point about being numb, but really, how's that stopping you from doing a simple act prior to disposal? It's almost like you want the little creature to suffer. I certainly hope not!
Please tell me how in any shape or form it's ethical to let the animal suffer rather than to kill it outright (considering you have the power of choice there)? I am interested to hear your reply.
Jasmine since you choose not to or can't leave a link back to yourself perhaps you don't know how a blog functions. These links will bring you up to date.
Fishing For Outrage
Seeing Reddit
I really have no desire to go over and over this adnauseum.
Please tell me how in any shape or form it's unethical to let a rodent, a destructive, disease carrying piece of vermin suffer before it dies? I am interested to hear your reply.
Unfeeling and unethical are two different things.
You're tip-toeing around the question by answering with a question, giving no clearly defined answer. I have read the other blogs, but the bulk of the discussion is here, including all the relevant statements. None of those links answer my question. And no, saying "I don't care if they suffer" isn't an answer, because that doesn't explain how such an act is actually ethically sound.
You can't answer it, can you? So much easier directing it back to me I guess. I'll be more than happy to answer that for you, but it's only fair if you answer mine. I did ask first after all, and if you're not going to answer, then it just goes to show you really have no argument here.
That the meaning of "unethical" and "unfeeling" is different isn't relevant, because you are displaying both in this instance. Now, I'll ask again: how is causing a mouse/rat/misc rodent to suffer horribly for a period of time, ethically sound when it can be put out of its misery?
Jasmine darling, if that is your real name, now that traffic has slowed enough and with regular repetition I have your IP address in Sydney, New South Wales. The determination and tone tell me you are a person with multiple personalities. I have a fair notion of who you are.
When you have the courage of your convictions to present your real self and stop hiding in anonymity I will consider diving into an ethical discussion with you. Cyber stalking and harassment would make a good topic of ethical discussion.
For now I will just say I do not consider tossing vermin in the trash to be unethical. If you feel otherwise and that I should some how be bound by your ethical standards, the onus is on you to prove why.
So now you're changing the subject to completely avoid the question?
Where I come from has no bearing on the discussion, you're chasing shadows here because it's a distraction from a question you are clearly refusing to answer. How are we supposed to hold a discussion on ethics if you keep on dodging the point? The onus isn't on me, it's on you. You have to show how it is ethical to subject a rodent to a very painful death, when the choice of euthanasia is available. You have to justify it ethically, hence why it was asked in the first place. You're being asked the question here, I'm not expecting you to conform to my moral standards.
If you feel I am someone else, than that's your problem with paranoia, not mine. Something tells me you are unwilling to go through a discussion in great detail because, god forbid, someone might point out flaws in your reasoning. Personally speaking? I don't think you have a leg to stand on here, and it's showing.
Jasmine darling, we know that's not your real name. I don't have to do anything. I have made myself perfectly clear. That was your last comment as an anonymous poster. Obviously you lack the courage to face public scrutiny.
Grant yourself a nice piece of sisal rope and make good use of it.
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